Y&R Discussion Group -- I thought Dems were AGAINST corporate welfare?!?!?

Y&R Discussion Group

Topic: I thought Dems were AGAINST corporate welfare?!?!?

Topic Posted by: An Independent
Date Posted: Mon Nov 17 11:44:17 2008
Additional Comments: Seems like the Dems are the ones really pushing for this bailout of GM. They have always claimed to be against corporate welfare but what else is this? This will reinforce bad behavior and the auto industry won't learn anything, just keep doing what they are doing, and the unions will keep demanding more and more of the perks that drive car prices onward and upward.

Posted by: farmer brown
Date posted: Tue Nov 18 5:28:16 2008
Message:
I've had very mixed feelings about all of these bailouts ... like to AIG, where the executives are still partying it up with lavish getaways to resorts on our dime.

I'm concerned we'll be sending good money after bad with the auto bailouts. There's no use trying to salvage an unsalvagable company. If they are gonna sink, maybe they should just sink; at the same, the failure of an auto giant at this particular precarious time could be the event that takes us from a bad recession, which we already know is inevitable, to our own 21st century version of the Great Depression Lite. I'm not sure some people are realizing how dangerously, dangerously close we are teetering toward true economic disaster.

Honestly, I don't know what our leaders should do. I just pray for them to have the wisdom to do the right thing.

There's one thing for sure ... I can't tolerate any more talk of "Obama's gonna bring us socialism." I sincerely hope there isn't anyone left who is so misinformed as not to realize it's ALREADY HERE. It came this fall. And a Republican administration and a Democratic Congress presided over the conversion.

The tiny silver lining in all of this: deflation. We're getting to the point where gas prices and home prices are falling so much, that alone will eventually stimulate the economy in a year or two or five. These energy and commodity prices, IF they stick, are like a free stimulus package. Meanwhile, buckle up ... it's gonna be a ROUGH ride.

Posted by: Paige
Date posted: Mon Nov 17 20:15:39 2008
Message:
I say let them go bankrupt. We can't start bailing out everyone who has a hand out. We'd be in a situation of having to say "when". It's only the unionized manufacturers that are in trouble. The nonunion auto manufacturers are outperforming them and have said they are financially sound at this point. The pensions and perks to former employees are outrageous. From what I hear my grandparents and parents say, we are nowhere close to what Reagan inherited from Carter (being from GA it pains me to admit that) so I think we'll be just fine even if they fail.

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So you don't give a flying fig what happens to the 100's of thousands of people who will become unemployed and lose benefits with probably no opportunity to find another job that pays anything close to a living wage? Think of all the industries that will be affected...not just the UAW workers at the plants. The steel workers who create the steel, the companies that build parts and pieces for the auto makers, the people at the local level car dealerships from parts people, mechanics, salespeople, loan officers that will be unemployed in an economy that's tanking. Oh yes, lets all let this country sink into a Hoover depression. In the past, airlines who went bankrupt could reorganize under bankrupsy laws, get loans and start over again. Not in this economy. We can't afford to let 100,000 plus people end up on unemployment. Hey, so what...you've got a job, screw anybody else...the Republican mantra. Elaine

She might end up without a job if GM goes under, because it would have a huge cascade effect. If GM goes, then many of the auto parts suppliers--already in big trouble--will go. They supply ALL the auto factories. That means the others will have to shut down a lot of factories. (And, btw, they aren't doing fine. All the automakers are posting double-digit sales drops. But of course the knee-jerk reaction of Repubs is to blame unions for everything, even though unions have, and will likely continue to give major concessions.) 1 in 10 businesses are impacted by the auto industry. It's naive at best to think this doesn't impact everyone. And this isn't a bailout; these will be loans, so it's not corporate welfare. - dbrv

They are the ones who got themselves into this mess. At this point, it's going to be throwing good money after bad. I do think the best thing for them to do is file bankruptcy and start over from the ground up. I don't see any union leaders volunteering to give up their bonuses to help the industry. dbrv, thank you for correcting me. I guess you should know better than the nonunion auto manufacturers in my area on how they are doing. They've been quoted as saying they are doing fine and don't need the government money. There are three nonunion manufacturing plants in Alabama and one set to open soon in the southernmost part of my county. The three in Alabama are doing much better than the unionized plants in parts of Detroit. Same with others across the Southeast. BTW, the unions announced that they are not willing to give any more concessions. I do have sympathy for those who may lose their jobs, but I don't think bailing out these three automakers is the best option. dbrv, I don't understand your comment about my job either. I work with adjudicated juvenile males. Unless they are placed with us for stealing a car, my job has nothing to do with the auto industry.

I'm not sure about a bailout either, but you could still be affected if one of the Big Three goes under, especially Ford or GM. The ripple effects in the economy would be less government revenue. Governments are already letting people go here in Jawjah. NO ONE is immune in the coming downturn unless they are lucky enough to be sitting on hundreds of thousands of dollars in CASH. farmer

So much for the alleged health of the Southeastern plants ... the Nissan plants in Canton Mississippi and Smyrna Tennessee are no longer operating at all on Fridays and will soon announce additional days that they will halt production. So far, they haven't laid off many folks, but nobody is getting 40 hours anymore ... Ricky

If the non-union auto manufacturers can't get auto parts, then they won't be doing fine. Just because you didn't see unions give concessions doesn't mean it didn't happen. Link inside to story about concessions the UAW gave to GM last year. They were very substantial. They're probably going to have to give up more, and so are the executives. Almost 2.5 million jobs could be eliminated if GM goes under. That will impact you--you're kidding yourself if you believe otherwise. As farmer said, many government jobs are already being eliminated. If 2% of the workforce disappears, it will only get worse. - dbrv

BTW, I just saw the article where the UAW said the other day they won't be giving more concessions. Believe me, I'm not automatically defending everything they do, but at least they did SOMETHING to try and get GM back on track last year. Right now they're like the people who still believe their homes are worth $100,000 more than they are. Reality is going to have to dawn on them sooner rather than later. And blaming the unions solely for the problem the automakers are in is a specious argument to begin with. This is because of many, many factors, including GM overinvesting in the wrong kinds of cars and the credit crunch. Blaming unions for everything is so Reagan era. Time to stop with the 80s rhetoric and face the issues that are happening now. - dbrv

Posted by: sandy
Date posted: Mon Nov 17 17:29:56 2008
Message:
This was in the Detroit Free Press this morning. Thought you might be interested.
Myth No. 1
Nobody buys their vehicles.
Reality
General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of about 560,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.
Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million vehicles in the United States last year.
Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year.

Myth No. 2
They build unreliable junk.
Reality
The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and '90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found that "Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers." The independent J.D. Power Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands' overall quality as high or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo.
Power rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.

Myth No. 3

They build gas-guzzlers.
Reality
All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic. A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate.
Myth No. 4
They already got a $25-billion bailout.
Reality
None of that money has been lent out and may not be for more than a year. In addition, it can, by law, be used only to invest in future vehicles and technology, so it has no effect on the shortage of operating cash the companies face because of the economic slowdown that's killing them now.

Myth No. 5 GM, Ford and Chrysler are idiots for investing in pickups and SUVs.
Reality
The domestic companies' lineup has been truck-heavy, but Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have all spent billions of dollars on pickups and SUVs because trucks are a large and historically profitable part of the auto industry. The most fuel-efficient full-size pickups from GM, Ford and Chrysler all have higher EPA fuel economy ratings than Toyota and Nissan's full-size pickups.
Myth No. 6
They don't build hybrids.
Reality
The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009.

Posted by: Elaine
Date posted: Mon Nov 17 13:32:13 2008
Message:
Can you imagine the ripple down affect of Ford and GM going bankrupt? Not only the carworkers but the industries that supply parts and materials for the cars, the local dealerships, everybody that has anything to do with the car industry...You're talking 100's of thousands of layoffs and unemployment. Can you imagine what that would do for our fragile economy? It's very much the same as the banking industry that was bailed out...massive disruption to our economy perhaps tipping us into a depression. Last night on 60 Minutes Obama explained why this loan HAD to be done and that there would be stipulations on the money. In sounder financial times, the car companies could have 'reorganized', declared bankrupcy and gotten loans to get started again like the airlines did years ago. However, this is a totally different time in this country. Private loans are not available or are very hard to come by. It sounded pretty reasonable explaination to me. Obama said yes, there should be consequences for businesses that engage in poor management, (like going out of business). But at this time, with unemployment, loans being hard to get ....this is the ONLY option to help our country survive until more prosperous times come around again. Obama said, like in the 30's, money has to be spent to shore up our economy and get us on track again. (at least we're spending it here and not throwing it down the Iraq sewer that does nothing to help the American economy and people. I think things are a lot worse than people have been lead to believe and will get worse before things get better..

Posted by: nina
Date posted: Mon Nov 17 13:20:28 2008
Message:
Well, just yesterday I was watching George Stephanopolous discussing this, and Paul Krugman, the 2008 recipient of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences, was involved in the discussion.

According to Mr. Krugman, bailing out the car companies is a good idea. He says if we weren't in the middle of an economic crisis, it would be okay to let the car companies sink. But since we are in such a bad situation economically, he says that we really ought to bail out the car industry, because if they go under, it will have too much of an impact on the already extremely strained economy.

I think Mr. Krugman knows what he's talking about, and I certainly trust his opinion on this.

Posted by: Meri
Date posted: Mon Nov 17 13:18:35 2008
Message:

Maybe if people would just buy American, the American car companies wouldn't be in this type of shape.

And, I think unions are a good thing for living wages.

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When American car companies produce products equal to/better than their Asian and European counterparts for the same price, I'll gladly buy American. //SqueezeMe

Well, I've bought several different brands myself over the years, but I hope if they get a bailout that they are able to make vehicles that people will purchase and the American public will support their efforts. /Meri

EXACTLY! Toyota and Honda, et al. all have manufacturing plants in the U.S., too, so it's not like I'm ''taking jobs away from Americans'' by buying Japanese. --susie

Erin Burnett an analyst for CNBC was one of the panelists on Chris Matthews yesterday and stated that, '' ... But if you look at General Motors, walking dead in America, it's bleeding money; but overseas GM is a champion. Second-largest car market in the world is China. GM is number one. Largest car market in Europe is Russia. Forty-four percent growth last year for General Motors. It's number one. And what is the fastest growing car in the world? Chevrolet.'' .... So while many US consumers prefer their Toyotas and Hondas, etc. GM seems to be capturing the market somewhere, somehow. - JT

I buy American ONLY! Don't blame me!! :)

Yeah, the Japanese compaines make cars in Canada and the US but ultimately where does the money go? Not to the US or Canada. The Japanese cars are more expensive with higher financing costs. My mum has had two Hondas in a row and while they are nice cars, the heaters bite big time. I'll take a Chrysler or GM over Honda any day. I can't speak for Ford as I have never owned one. I think that Chrysler makes the coolest cars (Charger, Avenger, Challenger) and invented the mini-van, and GM makes great cars too. I had a Lumina for a few years and recently rented an Impala. Love those cars. But I digress, I have family who work in the auto industry in both Windsor and Detroit, so this somewhat affects me as I was considering moving out that way. Times are tough here but it may be better to stay put for a few more years. /Betty

Posted by: Donna7888
Date posted: Mon Nov 17 13:10:28 2008
Message:

What I don't understand is, why aren't foreign car companies having problems? Could that be because they are operating correctly?

If the American car companies got themselves into this mess, then let them get their own loans from banks just like the regular American citizen has to when they need one. Why go to the gov't?

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Well, that's the problem --- they can't go to the banks, because no bank would cough up a few billion dollars for them, unless of course the loan was guaranteed by the U.S. government. So it's either bail them out, or let them crash, and as Elaine noted above crashing right now would have a horrific impact on the ecomony. Not saying I'm for or against the bailout, just explainin' why .... Ricky

One of the reasons, Donna, imo, is that like Korea will take 14 of our American made cars into Korea in 1 year according to our trade agreement with them. I'm sure our trade agreements with other auto producing countries are the same.......................Kate

Posted by: ingyandbert
Date posted: Mon Nov 17 12:38:08 2008
Message:
And I used to think that Republicans, the party of record budget deficits for going on 30 years now, were fiscal conservatives.

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Just more partison sarcasm from the peanut gallery.

Well, hello, obviously you didn't notice the ORIGINAL TOPIC was partisan. Now there's something to go Hmmm about. ~i&b

NO, the topic title was partisen, but the topic itself was an issue up for discussion, weighing the pros/cons etc. Your reply didn't contribute anything, it was just a dose of sarcasm.

Posted by: Kate
Date posted: Mon Nov 17 12:15:25 2008
Message:

''This will reinforce bad behavior.''???? And you use this referring to what the democrats would cause?

Excuse me. Where would you start with what the other side has done?

Posted by: Terri
Date posted: Mon Nov 17 12:12:39 2008
Message:
The Republicans are in bed with the industry leaders and the Democrat are in bed with the union leaders, and unions and businesses have a symbiotic relationship. If GM and co go bankrupt, or move overseas, the unions lose those nice fat contracts that they fought so hard to get. So of course they're bailing out the industry. Congress and the Senate passed the biggest farm subsidy bill ever seen, so we shouldn't be surprised that they're subsidizing another business

Posted by: jMarieSmall
Date posted: Mon Nov 17 12:00:22 2008
Message:
Well there are lot of unions that the Dems seem to care about...and I am sure there are unions full of carworkers that the Dems want on their side.