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DOOL Discussion Group
My 10 year old dd(dear daughter) has an iron will & nerves of steel. I'll fight that battle for the next 10 years, but this school year has been especially challenging. Last year was too, but it was an almost impossible situation with the teacher & I practically gave up. This week she forged her dad's initials on a test that was sent home for parent signature. We get grades online & the test was last week, so we already knew about the failing grade.
I was waiting until I spoke to her, to hubby & to teacher before I decided what to do. Last night, in a completely unrelated matter, we got into a discussion that lead to some serious talk about trust, credibility & reputation. I told her I was foregoing consequences until this weekend until I'd been able to talk to teacher & have some time to think about this. What do you think are appropriate consequences? I feel almost stumped.
I emailed teacher & told her the nature of our talk last night. We agree that she GETS IT, but she is the kid who is going to break every rule to see if it can be broken, cross every line to see if there is a way around it. With all the issues we've had this year, she has had many privileges taken away & for long periods. I'm wondering if revoking privileges is going to get her attention. Teacher said this needs to have serious consequences & not back down.
I'm good at not backing down once I draw my line. But, man, I am questioning myself so much. She knows I don't back down when I draw the line. When is she going to figure it out? This kid is so strong, but so smart. Any help & advice appreciated.
My son, who will be 13 next week, sounds a lot like your daughter.
His elementary school years were difficult; he got in trouble all the time. He was suspended from elementary school for urinating on the playground; for telling another kid that he had 'toxic breath', and for chasing a kid around the playground with a 'poo stick' (a stick dipped in dog poo).
Probably some other stuff too but that's all I can remember now...I've blocked the rest of it out, lol.
His grades were B's and C's. He was also in the 'gifted and talented' program, because he's really smart and he scored very high on the verbal portion of the testing.
He has always been verbal, and like your daughter, should be an attorney because he ARGUES ABOUT EVERYTHING, all the time. This got him into trouble at school too, and at home. He's very legalistic and will try and find fault/error with everything told to him. He comes across as a real know-it-all at times too, and as such has only three friends.
Anyway, his story is brighter now. Once he went to middle school, 6th grade here, where he has six different classes and teachers, his performance improved greatly. I don't know if he is less bored, or if he just grew up some, or what; but now his grades are all A's with a few B's.
He could still do better. He isn't interested in taking advanced classes like his sister. He wants to do what he has to to 'get by', but I have stressed that 'getting by' is nothing less than a B grade.
If he gets less than that, he goes on probation at home which means no video games, TV, game boy, etc. on weekdays, and limited access on weekends. This works because he plays Halo online and loves it.
My husband also makes him work outdoors a lot. Yesterday, he was outside from 10 am until 6 pm, mowing, raking, and helping my husband build the pool equipment shed. He doesn't like being outside but it's good for him, and I think deep down he does enjoy knowing how to repair things and riding the lawn mower.
He mows the next door neighbor's yard for $50 a week. The neighbor wanted to pay him $100, because the lot is one acre, but my husband said just give him $50. Their house is for sale, and if they sell it, then he will be out of work but until then it gives him money and keeps him away from the video games every Saturday.
So, if you're still awake, I would say that:
1. Your daughter may well improve. Don't give up hope! The change in my son from 5th to 6th grades was remarkable.
2. Take away priveliges, whatever hers are. Since she is social, (like my daughter is also), hit her there. No friends over, no cell phone, no IM, no mall/movies, etc.
3. Regarding the arguing, DON'T DO IT. If you even give my son a millimeter, he will take a kilometer. Just say THE END and walk away.
Good luck! Your daughter is a beautiful girl.
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You need to remember that you are teaching her skills that apply to real life living. Her hard headedness to comply to the rules in her world, failure to do chores, lie, cheat, sneak around, talk back, are not becoming to a healthy personality. There are times and places to use her skills at challenging others...on the school debate team, at student council, when she doesn't understand an assignment and needs clarification, she needs to speak up. Those ae times to question.
As her parent, house rules need to be established. Chore chart, positives and punishments laid out on the table for her to see. You and hubby write out your family goal plan. What you expect from each member of the family and where you want to go in life. This could be a family contract. Being strong willed, she seems to need things down in writing.
When you get this contract written out, everyone needs to sit down and sign it. All that is in there is what is best for the family. Most families tend to have these things in their heads, and know where they are going, while some float along and have no idea about direction in their lives.
It sounds to me that your little girl is stretching to find where those boundaries are and really NEED you to have firm limits and consequences/praises for her actions.
Tomorrow is a new day. With each new day there is a chance for a new beginning. She is 10 now, and 10 being (10-teen), she is maturing. She NEEDS to see that consequences fo her actions are at her fingertips. She can EARN praises (or other rewards) or she can EARN her scoldings and punishments.
Instead of sending her to her room, make her spend her 10 minutes of timeouts in the kitchen sitting on the floor in the corner. (Remember, prisoners are contained in small cell blocks. But I would advise not to cage her, somehow that is frowned upon by society.) ??? But, having her sit somewhere she does not like, but is not physically harming her should be ok. After all, the nanny does it!
Speaking of the nanny...if other things don't work you could matter of factly let her know that you have contemplated seeking help from "the nanny". Of course, that would humiliate her on national TV, but sometimes hard times call for desperate measures!
In all sincerity, I think that firm guidelines with pros and cons listed give her a better foundation, knowing that you are doing this in love for her benefit. We all have lessons that we need to learn for the right reasons. Work ethics and lifeskills are of key importance. She needs to learn that rules are there to learn these skills. ...and she will be a respected person for it.
IF she discerns that you are the (as Sparky puts it, the Alpha Dog) and she is the beta dog, and you are the one in authority, life will be better. As she EARNS her way out of the 10 year old life and lifts herself up to the life of an 11 year old, AND she exemplifies that maturity, she will gain self respect and granted more respect from others, ie. teachers/friends.
I have a girl on the bus who has lost the privileges of her cell phone and ipod. She was so focused on the loss that she didn't see the lesson. She is BOY CRAZY. She has a very mean streak in her. I am SO GLAD she is not my daughter. I WON'T be surprised if she is not pregnant before she graduates, that is IF she graduates. I certainly hope this doesn't happen to your daughter.
So when you need to discipline your daughter, make sure she understands that you are doing it in love and have her best interest in heart. AND that she understands the consequences of her actions.
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Calico was much like your daughter. Gabby was to an extent. Still is.
When Gabby was little, I could tell her to put this on the table on the left side. She would put it on the table, but on the right side. Or go over there and walk to the right side of the table. She would, but walk around the left side of the table. She would mind, but it had to be done her way. We battled that with her forever! Mari Da is just like having Gabby all over again. I see so many traits of Gabby in Da.
Calico was just flat strong willed. We had, many times, the battle of the wills. She was very strong mined and didn't hesitate to let it be known. Good news..............as she got older it got better. She is still strong willed, but she has learned how to direct her strong will to use it for good, so to speak.
Strong willed will serve her well when she is a teen. One thing about Calico, peer pressure meant nothing to her! She made her stand and was not afraid to do so. She had/has much determination. Tell her she is not able to do something and she will work at it till she does it, just to prove you wrong. Her determination is what has made her such a capable young woman, good mother and wife.
I do understand what you are saying though. As I said, we had many battles of the will.
One thing, I got some video tapes. They were Bible based about obeying. I incorporated them into our home-school program. They helped so much!
One that I got was called WHAT TO EXPECT FROM A TWELVE YEAR OLD.
On the box, it says, ''A study of Luke 2 shows that Jesus, but the age 12, had developed 7 character qualities necessary for true maturity. This video not only show parents the proper goals for their children, but also provides motivation for youth to reach for those goals.''
Also on the box are recommendations from people who have used the tapes.
A couple say,
''My 14 year old daughter watched this video and then came and asked me to hold her accountable to develop the character qualities she was lacking. We are thrilled.''
''Our family watched the video. The next evening our 9 year old son started clearing the table after dinner. When asked why, he said he found out from Dr. Davis that he was suppose to be responsible by the age of 12. He thought he might as well begin working on it now.''
Dr. Davis has a bunch of tapes out.
http://www.solvefamilyproblems.com/
Above is his website. Click on Rebellion, Parenting, and any others which you may be interested.
I DO have the 12 year old video. I would gladly lend it to you. I will mail it to you and you can mail it back when you are done with it. I would let you keep it, but Calico wants to have it when her girls get older. But right now, you can certainly borrow it, if you wish.
I also THINK, I have the CHANGING THE HEART OF A REBEL and/or MY SON, GIVE ME THINE HEART. I didn't see them when I went down stairs to look just now, but will look again.
Thees tapes really did make an impression on my girls.
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My son is in middle school, 7th grade, and these past two years have been the hardest. Although he is smart, he has not turned in assignments, been the object of bullying, gotten in fights and lied to us. It is the lying that upsets me most, though, it has been about relatively little things. The punishment that seems to bother him the most is losing his cell phone privileges. It cuts him off from his friends (though they are allowed to call our house, they rarely do) and is effectively a grounding, because he is out of the loop. Before he had a cell phone, in elementary school, we usually used grounding as punishment. It is hard not to be able to do things that friends are doing and seemed to get his attention. Not that some of the bad behavior didn't continue. Like your daughter, I often feel that he doesn't care much about the grounding or losing privileges. He lost use of the computer, except for school work earlier this year for a month. Then he gave it up for lent and now, though, he is allowed again, he rarely uses it for games or IMing. My son forged his dad's signature on a math paper last year. Although we punished him for it, what really seemed to bother him was disappointing his favorite teacher.
I've rambled a lot about my own experiences, but didn't really give any advice or solutions. Maybe it is enough to know that you are not alone, just do the best that you can.
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Ah, yes...Well, being that I have head-of-rock and so does Mr. ML, our children are quite igneous in nature. Mr. ML is the type who just does what he has to do, whereas I was the one who would proclaim my independence yada yada. Our kids are a lovely mixture of hard-headedness...
OK. Not that you're not doing this already. However...ya gotta lower the boom and lower it good. I may get flamed over this one, but...I don't buy the ''the child's bored'' concept. If you're that bored, you get the work done. It's a matter of not wanting to do something. Unfortunately, in life, you have to do certain things and act in a certain pattern.
For The Daughter, schoolwork wasn't the problem...authority was, to a point. It took a couple of very LONG and SEVERE groundings to get the point through...and then it was fine. It also was a matter of letting her know clearly and concisely that rules were made of love, not of power. In fact, I actually told her that I had better things to do than ruin her life...and if that was my main goal, I could do it REALLY effectively. For some reason, something clicked, and all was well. But it was tough going there for awhile...the age of almost-21 is a very good one.
For Sonny, well...it's interesting. We're so alike in so many ways it's scary...and that's why I have a really good hold on what's going through his mind. He has a very, very tough schedule in school, and he works a lot of hours. He also has friends with little-to-no direction or parental involvement, so the schedule and the work hours are a very good thing. He's 18, and he's legal and all, but he's in our house. I don't give a damn...he'll abide by our rules. I don't take orders from children. Thank God nothing has been all that horribly serious...but they push against authority. We don't push back...we hold our ground. Right now, he's grounded for a week..bummer for him, since he had last week off. So he got to go to work and back. Next week, he'll get to go to school and back and then work and back. We have taken the car away, meaning he had to *shudder* take the bus to school and back. Luckily, these things work very well.
Actually, the other day when something happened, we ended up having a long talk. That conversation led to me bringing up his childhood friend who died last year of a drug overdose. All of the sudden, we just looked at each other and started to cry. It was very cathartic...even though our problem last week had nothing to do with drugs, it had to with trying to sneak something. He got the point.
And without making excuses for bad behavior, I have another thought. I would find it scary for a kid to just follow rules without ever questioning them...probably because I'm me. I think that they also have to push against authority to some extent. That's where the parenting comes in. Some kids are just ''good as gold,'' according to their parents...and some are. But some of those parents really don't have a clue what their kids are doing and what they are getting away with.
So, in total, I don't know if I've been helpful or not here. My greatest advice...don't give up. I've seen people do that one, too. Never give up. Your daughter is worth too much, as you well know. If you have to take off her bedroom door, do it. If you need to get her involved in something, do that. Does she have an interest in dance or sports? Follow that lead.
If I think of any other brilliance, I'll come back. But hold your ground. That's the greatest gift you can give her.
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I have a very strong-willed 9 year old, borderline ODD (I hate to label, but...). She forged my name on a behavior slip in FIRST grade. She brought a 25-year veteran teacher almost to her knees. The school practically had me on speed dial. Fast forward to third grade, and she is in the gifted program and doing really well behavior wise. For HER, that is. She still pushes the envelope from time to time but it is minor compared to her first years in school.
What works for us is to mean what we say, and say what we mean. We can't negotiate with her, because she is like a lawyer. We started out taking away things, and that didn't work because she would tell us she didn't care anyway. But taking away privileges DID work. Not going to a friend's house, etc. And she doesn't get away with the smart mouth either.
We do the "one, two. three magic" thing too.
That's one.
If she still does what she's not supposed to do, then,
That's two.
Then that's three. Take 9 minutes (shes 9).
She goes to her room. It's cut and dry. No arguing, very matter of fact. Yes, sometimes she refuses to go to her room. Then we escort her (gently). It's been a war of wills since she was born pretty much. It's her strong suit AND her weak suit.Some days it's really hard--I'm not a combative person.I just know I have to stay one step ahead of her.
It's true what they say--It's the toughest job you'll ever love!!!
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I don't have kids. But I was one. Fortunately for my mother, I was the kind of kid that would rather die than disappoint or embarass her.
I don't know...is there a boot camp you can threaten to send her to? Perhaps an old maid aunt that lives in a haunted house? Threaten to move to Peoria, IL?
Maybe she just needs to let off some steam, it was a bad winter most places. It's getting late in the year, kids get tired of the routine, too.
Somehow, you just gotta get her to channel her determined-ness into positive outlets. I feel for ya. I wish you and her the best of luck!
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Good for you to get a handle on this now, when she is a teenager it will be too late. Our 4 kids are all different, but our 14 year old son is the strong willed power struggle waiting to happen. It has gotten soooo much better, though, and he really is a good kid and his teachers all love him because he is so respectful. With him, years ago hubby and I realized his strong will would either be his making or his un-doing. It all depended on how we "molded" his will without breaking it. Now, he has a good head on his shoulders and is still very opinionated and stubborn. He has NO problem telling kids who smoke, drink, steal, etc., to take a hike.
Revoking priveleges is the best thing we have found. But it has to really get them where it hurts. Taking away an Ipod is no big deal, or cell phone. However, if you tell her that her "taxi service" is over until she honors you, and stick with it, you'd be surprised. No rides to sports, play dates, birthday parties...nada. She needs to learn now that being rude and disrespectful to a person with control over her is a really bad idea.
Another good one is taking away all electricity priveleges (LOL! My son kept coming up with exceptions, so finally we said "Nothing that requires electricity or batteries."). The only electricity he got to use was his bedroom light to do homework. He HATED that week.
Bottom line, you want her to learn something from this. The lesson here is that if you behave, life can be pretty good. If not, it can really suck. Just like in real life. If I go to work late, verbally abuse my boss, do a crummy job, leave early...I won't have a job to go back to. The sooner they connect their behavior to how it affects their life, the better.
Good luck, I think she will be fine!
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Luckily my kids mostly did well in school and saw the importance. The means justify the end. In other words even in grade school, it is important how you apply yourself and get things take care of so the end (Getting into advance classes, good after school programs, good HS, good college. Well that at 10 is taken it far, LOL!
So my daughter, smart, applies her self when she wants and likes things. But in middle school then in HS, would not turn in Homework. So some of her grades would go down. I told her to go to talk to teacher but she would be nervous or embarrassed. So I would email teachers also. Now some parents think let things fall, you don't do the work you get the F. But I would help when I could so in the end, they would see and get that good grade, to get into those classes, school etc. But as they got in High School, I tried to back off. She my DD was worse then the boys. So she got sick, but would not get her homework. We had a huge battle in senior year. She got accepted to her college. Then she got flakey, she got real sick, did not complete that work, started to get D's and some C's. This had been a B+ girl. I was so upset.
Now she was 17, but I told her I am emailing the teacher the counselor and find out what is going on. Well she did not want that , so she got hold of teachers, did some make up or extra credits etc. Finally pulled the grades up. But I did restrict her Cell phone, and other stuff. So maybe that helped also!
Well back to your daughter. Does she sit and listen in class. Is she easily bored? Sometimes smart kids get into trouble. What in school does she like to do? If she finish her stuff in class can she do extra credit stuff?
What does her predication say? One thing I always said about my daughter, when they are strong willed, no man is going to walk over them,they won't put up with it! I do think you are on the right track. She might also need some extra help see what the school has to offer! Good luck!
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